As Lauren Diagle says it so very well: Im losing my religion/ To find You/ Im losing my religion, and finding something new/ Cause I need something different/ And different looks like You/. Lets face it, in this era one can access whatever superior teaching is preferred in the comfort of their home or car. I share this for all who, like me, are overcome with new sadness, pain and loss amidst the HBC, Willow, Catholic church, ECFA, SBC, GFA, etc. Youre right to say kind of. Talk is cheap lets see some action. You are wrong on that point.The NT writers do make the point that there should be payment and encourage readers to do so. They can be seen all over Evangelicalism. The church needs the wisdom of age coupled with the energy of youth young folks to speed things up a bit, old folks to slow it down when necessary. Leila: he will be partnering with a music minister from another local church and they are starting a church service in a bar on Sunday evenings. I cant put them in the same category as Jesus himself, nor should I. Its why I like to go to what Jesus actually said and did. Maybe the good old fashioned seven deadly sins list would be a good list to start with. If anything, out of all the ashes has come a humbling of my spirit. How to Resign from a Church The average American Christian has evidently become so open-minded about such characters that their spiritual brains have fallen out! God looks lovingly upon your confusion and pain, and wants nothing more than for you to find and know him as he truly is, apart from all of the hypocrisy and falsity that parades as the institutional church. My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. There is no such thing as a single pastor leader role that even exists. As Paul cautioned the church at large to beware of Alexander, he has done us much harm, so the watchblogs speak to inform and warn other believers to be wary of certain leaders. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. chosen by the hand of Jesus? In most of these cases, thats true because the red flags were there. Every weekend were gathering to open the Bible together, growing in Gods ways through community and going out to bring God glory through His Son, Jesus Christ. TS00: Agreed. It certainly didnt protect anyone. Personally, I call bull. Our staff and volunteer leaders cant wait to welcome your kids to our safe, secure, age-appropriate program. humble. Good Grief. Abused and misused, it stands in for everything from I can never be good enough for God to accept me, to sin-leveling, and license to ignore my humanity and to go ahead and do the kinds of things to others I wouldnt want done to me. That brings back a memory I havent thought about for years. Usually being replaced by a building program or a new strategic plan or a new school blah blah blah. But if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. I can completely understand why Dee wouldnt want people here to be dragging stuff out and speculating about a teenage boy. Temptation sharp and keen. Dallas Jenkins: It was leaked. one who rules his own house well Elsewhere on this thread I talked about a situation where itd be cruel imo to air public matters. ANYONE who is still in that place who is not a child or a new believer is complicit and participated in shunning all who left. IDK what the other XLT staffers and Elders are waiting for, but they will be judged if these wolves are allowed to set up new lairs due to their silence. About how you think there is something wrong with you because you dont feel the same things that they do, and soon you come to believe that you are defective or damaged goods. Not to say that we may not voluntarily partake of symbols and freely made offerings to God; but never again can any men or institutions demand that we submit to their demands or interpretations of How to be saved. Nothing is more dangerous than a tyrant who genuinely believes in his own false mission. John: I was asked to consider serving on the elder board there three days before I leftand the topic of 1Tim 3 wasnt brought up. I just know that if one of the callers in my English Country Dance or Contra Dance communities was screaming at people or even talking in a consistently rude way, that would not stand for a day, let alone years. We swore our allegiance to him. Another typo I meant Peter and Paul. His LLC scheme was dreamed up because James announced that no new debt would be taken on until the $43M in debt was paid off in full. I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support their gambling problem. I tend to trust her judgment here. If leaders and led live like this, the details of polity scarcely matter. Harvest has impacted me in this way too & I can relate to the emotional impact that you both describe. I understand He loves us to infinity as my 6 year old likes to say, but it sure wouldve been nice if pastor had given parents of small children some kind of warning. Too bad there is not a single human being on the planet that is qualified. Hes earned his money, Im a witness that almost everything you re reading and hearing is true.. In the face of authoritarian church leaders who excommunicate, run off or demonize anyone who dares to challenge their false authority and/or iniquity, blogs have filled the void of public accountability. It has been a comfort reading here (and at TED, Julie Roys, and other sites revealing the truth) of others who are working through this. But I still hold to my opinions, and consider them at least worthy of consideration for those who look at this mess and wonder how we got here. The history of church offices is a bit more complicated. TS00: sometimes I feel pretty alone in this wilderness. But I suspect that since McDonalds first job is being a pastor, it would not surprise me if this was a canned hunt. So I come here to learn, share solace and insights, and tell the odd bear joke. Law Prof: Years later, the church long ago destroyed by heavy abuse and the former members scattered, a number of them atheists today, that drama pastor is now into the New Age. . elastigirl: this is because the powerbrokers have the mic, Reminds me of something an old saint whispered to me on our way out of a contentious church business meeting You shouldnt give the devil the microphone., elastigirl: the powerbrokers have everyone brainwashed that the institution is too big to fail. Info on the photo is apparently wrong. *the church is in a happier healthier place as a result of the accountable actions of James up urs Sherwood like to MacDonald. Vincent: Man if you are looking for a physical church to be perfected and wholly sanctified, by mere men, you will be disalusioned. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them (Acts 5:38-39). JMac will tap posterity for prosperity yet again as soon as he reinvents himself. Same thing I guess. Amen to all those who have written shame on you., roebuck: nobody goes there anymore its too crowded. Yogi Berra, Im surprised mega churches ever become crowded since You can observe a lot by just watching. -Yogi Berra. It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. I think these gifts are operating as God intended, outside of the systems weve designed and created. And now hes trying to explain to all of us how the 2000 people that left and who were shunned by the Harvesr machine that we somehow need to let the Lord work to save Harvest? That included giving James $20K-$30K a MONTH to spend just on T&E. You have not fully recognized the level of evil that you eagerly participated in in order to promote yourself riding on the coattails of a famous narcissist and personally enrich yourself unrighteously with tithes that the New Testament does not even teach. Sadly, many of us have learned our lesson the hard way, but it is not he who established these institutions and herded his people into them. 37 were here. I truly believe God provides the grace for elders to walk in the attributes in 1Tim 3, You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. Vincent: you must have first hand knowledge and part of that fellowship in some fashion. Ive been in churches where folks in the pew worshiped the property more than Jesus! He should never again have a say in how people live their lives. I am willing to bet that MacDonald has been on the horn with Driscoll to see how he transitioned to Scottsdale after Mars Hill imploded. Harvest Christian Academy currently has more than 500 students, more than 60 staff members, and continues to move forward with a high leadership focus. You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. Airing Mr. and Mrs. MacDonalds dirty laundry or private correspondence in that case on a public forum would be gossipy and downright cruel. Thank you!!!! Crony to cronyand I hear you and see it all the timebut to me? Harvest Bible Chapel Buffalo 135 subscribers Everything from The Chosen, Harvest Bible Chapel, 5am Writing, and more! What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. Weve drifted so far from the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth, Im not sure the institutional church can find its way back. But who is to say whether that subset is right? but also why it doesnt seem to happen in the institution. Over time, the North Shore church family found they needed a place for weekday ministries. I tracked down the World Magazine article on Jerry Jenkins gambling from which I had gleaned what little info I had and saw that it mentioned that Dallas also participated in online poker, and that another son was a dealer at a real live casino. Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? Yowzers, you have me stumped. Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? Amy Moore: There are about 4 dozen Harvest execs & elders moving on to other ministries and the corruption runs so deep theres no chance they wont be infecting every ministry they touch going forward. If a church tries to appoint elders who dont meet the qualifications for eldershipthe church dies. IMO, most people attend church to replace the lost family and community modern society has sacrificed. Was it released or leaked? God says he is the author and finisher of our faith which is a comforting truth. This man has no shame. I was there for 10 years and my daughters both attended Harvest Christian Academy and I had been asked to consider eldershipwe left in 2012 after repeated warnings from former elders. Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. . Whether or not those offices were appropriate, church history shows they developed early and were ubiquitous. The false institutional church was reconstituted by Constantine, who asserted the right to define and regulate what was orthodox and permissible. About a year ago, Jenkins stepped off the Moody Board of Trustees. Without any explanation, Dee says she is convinced that Hall is repentant. Dallas Jenkins, Executive Director, Vertical Church Media at Harvest Bible Chapel, and son of Jerry Jenkins of Left Behind fame, tells stories for a living and shares insider info about producing and directing films at Harvest in this session of the Pro Church Podcast. A person who thinks they are qualified, is someone who may need to take some time to discern whether thats true. You should repent and make reparations where necessary. And check your privilege while youre at it. As Jenkins mentions in the above Instagram post, the cast and crew are on their second day of filming the Bible's 'Feeding of the Five Thousand' story (F5K). He was a cynical grandstands and shameless self-promoter. RAWR!, I doubt that the facts will stop MacDonald from making an unrepentant comeback. I should have rechecked my facts before commenting. Harvest Christian Fellowship is a megachurch in Riverside, California. TS00: It is difficult to not imagine that the overly generous salaries passed out at Harvest have a lot to do with the leaders who refuse to call for the opening of the books. By the end of the first century there are already offices of bishop, priest, and deacon. "I believe (that is) my job in my personal life. Id call him a bottom feeder but I like lobster too much..So hes lower than that. Ill be blunt, your post is silly. Is anonymous code for little people or pew peons? Law Prof: I think Sinclair Lewis was an emotional infant and had a lot more in common with Elmer Gantry than he had the introspection to see. Instead, the cowriters hope that the show will encourage viewers to read the gospels with renewed passion. Didnt Paul rejoice from prison that the gospel was preached, whether from false motives or true? Jenkins himself was brought on as an elder at Harvestwhy was he chosen? , but my fans urged me to stay. I dont have any answers. That was 30 years ago and it proved to be true. I dont get the impression that Dee is OK with Hall at all. Its Greshams law applied to religion: bad drives out good. I AM GOD AND YOU ARE GOD AND EVERYTHING THAT GROKS IS GOD TOGETHER! Dallas, choose the path of humility! In 2012, after several decades of developing the worship culture at Harvest, the Vertical Church Band was born. The posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the comments both here and on Twitter from anonymous people. If you have questions, concerns, or encouragements for them, they would love to hear from you. He did this knowing that I was qualified for neither. Once you step out of that or can no longer take part, the machine moves on without you. I dont think one can derive that theory from that word showing up once in the entire NT in Peg 4, 4th in a list. TS00: And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. Here are some fun and easy strategies to make the most of every moment of your Bible study. all of this is deeply regrettable. The true believers need to either find a local church or seek spiritual counseling because they have a VERY warped sense of church. Never to leave me alone! Sure its likely that not everyone knew everything, but no one is telling all they know, and you can only suppose it has much to do with the filthy lucre they received from the till. Remove the plank so the splinter can be clearly seen. As for Noevangelicals point that no-one on earth is so qualified, that is equally specious. Years later, the church long ago destroyed by heavy abuse and the former members scattered, a number of them atheists today, that drama pastor is now into the New Age. Its your choiceAnonymity is not the same thing as cowardice, but thanks so much for playing that tired old game. The Bible is clear that all people are God's creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who have faith (trust) in the work of Jesus are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10). A person who thinks they are qualified, is someone who may need to take some time to discern whether thats true. Everyone who is of the Truth, who is a friend of the Truth and belongs to the Truth, hears and listens carefully to My voice. (Jesus, John 18:37). The Elgin Campus held their first service in September 2004 with over 800 in attendance and has become the church home to more than 1000 worshipers every week, as well as the home of our Christian school. Your church, at which you played a significant role, is a five alarm dumpster fire and there are thousands of actual souls who have been affected by this admitted scandal. Rescuing those who have ears to hear is the best any of us can do. To be brief. That was all it was intended to be. I will have to wait until I get to my computer because Im on my phone and the type of the letter is too small to read. Then I read actual instructions on the veneration of Elders as of Christ himself. Dallas Jenkins: I initially read that as bought him years of support. We share the common goal of wanting the abuse to stop. We believe that disciples of Jesus profess that He is Lord, practice His Ways, and persevere in both their profession and practice. Most of those Ive heard and experienced who tout elder-rule polity will say that this passage says anything but pew peons having any say in elder or pastor selection and/or accountability. Some of that was probably bad stuff that was always phony, that Im glad is gonebut Im sure some of it was good stuff that, far as I know, died years ago. part of it a fear of the outside that is purposely cultivated in church environments. When I did see it, in my home, I was livid that they essentially forced people to go. Many have joined the Done ranks done with the institutional church, but not done with Jesus. The statements were given to Greg Bradshaw, who shared with only a few Elders. Everything after those three paragraphs is my comment. Thrilled for both of them as they start their life together. The harm is already done. Having read the explanations of some of the associates and enablers who have pulled away from HBC, this does seem to have been part of why they put up with the wrongness coming from the top. For me I choose to pray and let God work, he never ceases to amaze especially when he answers prayer. I suppose those are the sort of preachers Jesus had in mind when He said: You guys are tempting me to mount my soap box! His client, the alleged molester, told him they were false. love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. Harvest CEO J Scott Milholland, was one of the men who was responsible for the $10M year secret Black Fund which was used to grossly enrich the top 20 execs at Harvest (including Dallas Jenkins). im so glad i resisted & refused all the pressure the christian community put on everyone concerning that film. Dallas, please reconsider your position. The proof of the Jesuss death and resurrection is what allows us to have faith in the things unseen. Id only add that the scar and damage to my faith as a result of Harvest is real, deeply painful, and permanent. be a spiritual failure, I see several at work in this situation at all levels top to bottom of the organization. husband of one wife It becomes a social club or a corporation or a cult or whatever. I rather doubt that they were able to get it right in the end. 4107 N Steele Blvd, Fayetteville, AR, 72703, United States. Short films include award-winning "The Ride" and. You need to stop looking at yourself as a victim and a good guy and admit that you are the neo-Pharisee that you really are. You have done some confession, but in private only. Im working with a couple of other groups and IMO progress is being made. There was a letter by Dean Butters that was leaked this past week. Or are we to believe he just held back on refuting all this defamation out of a righteous desire to turn the other cheek? I read an article yesterday about small mainstream churches driven to the wall by the migration to the megas being forced to lease their vacant during the week facilities to small businesses in order to generate enough income to keep the doors open. Many needy men get their egos stroked, while the women see through the charade. . Its a modern proverb that in organizations characterized by power differentials, mistreatment flows downhill. Were more or less on the same page, it sounds like. We only saw the one tomb. But the question is, what guys would He be hanging out with? Why is any pastor allowed to act like this? honest, at personal cost. Jenkins's career is focused on faith-based media. After six months exclusively online, we returned to in person services in September 2020. Praise God for TWW and other watchblogs who do their best to get the word out on these guys, but you cant stop the spiritually illiterate from attending their exciting churches. What is the source? Instead, all the surviving records appear to show the Church was liturgical and sacramental from the beginning, with established offices of bishops, priests, and deacons. I initially read that as bought him years of support.Same thing I guess. We find out that the pastor is living in a $2 million house, he said. Many parents contacted the school about it, and it was one of the first of many, many issues that arose there. sober-minded Samuel Conner: Be imitators of God, as dearly loved children, and live a life of love, even as Christ loved us and gave Himself for us. Yikes! The Story of Alleged Abuse at Sankey Orphanage in the Philippines and Its Relationship to Christ Community Chapel, Tom Randall, and Joe Coffey, Former Harvest Bible Chapel Members Want $72,000 In Donations Refunded, After Pastor James MacDonaldFired, https://swbts.edu/news/releases/game-banquet-uses-hunting-venue-spread-gospel/, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSTe9uit48, http://churchbuildingministry.org/who-we-are/, https://duckduckgo.com/?q=the+chosen+producers+james+macdonald&t=ffsb&ia=web, http://www.wsop.com/players/profile/?playerid=72494, http://www.globalpokerindex.com/poker-players/frederick-adams-169223/, https://classroom.synonym.com/the-role-of-the-clergy-in-the-greek-orthodox-church-12087637.html, https://www.archbalt.org/clergy-personnel-division/bishops-priests-deacons/. And theres a high likelihood this statement will get them expelled.. A lot of people still hurt. He was evidently so invested in making the Dramatic Point and leaving a Big Impression that I dont think he considered anyone else at that moment. So many things bring to mind what Leah Remini is bringing to light. The Chosen is similar to Risen, the excellent faith -based film that . Much as I seek to be gracious and forgiving, it is extremely difficult to accept these new confessions at face value. Restore him to ministry? All three words refer to one position or office within the church, that of the elders. elastigirl: you are a very comforting presence here, Max. The famous TV series director is a prominent name in the entertainment industry. Pre-1970 power (denominational competition for theological control of the Body of Christ), Post-1970 money (mega-madness begins, 6-figure salaries, limelight, mansions, jets). How would church members do what you recommend? More leaders must take a stand and shine the light of truth. This comes after several calls from other people including members and deacons of Harvest Bible Chapel, for them to . WHERE TO FIND US. The terminal stage 4 cancer exists. Yes, we must preserve the right to arm bears. All of the above is not an option, but it seems hard to pick one over any other. Its a lonely place, especially when my life was steeped in church community, teaching, and deep, deep, love for Christ and His people. hard for me to imagine a job description for this that commands a big salary, let alone a modest salary. If we just got back to that model, the one the early church leaders generally followed, where leaders humbly look around for those whom they can help, trying to be the last, not the first, putting their reputations, careers, and lives on the line if necessary, maybe the Church would stop functioning like some lurching Frankensteins Monster. This also is so very true! Its not all of it, but its certainly a substantive portion. They engineered the black funds and the worst of the financial abuse. So James has only paid a fraction of taxes that the rest of us little people would have had to without the luxury of the Pastor title and access to over $40M a year in donations. Jeepers we were fools! You and the other TWW regulars feel like family. Muff Potter: And if they refuse to see that these guys are nothing more than carnival barkers and mountebanks? I still believe that Jesus lived and the NT is reliable. Jimmy Evans, Head of Marriage Today TV & Sr Pastor and Apostle of Gateway Church, is reportedly in contact with James MacDonald. Conversational-type sermons, contemporary worship music, come-as-you-are. I do apologize to Dallas, and to anyone I may have misled with my faulty information. My current frustration, as someone who wants to get it right, is not knowing how to get it right in light of all the historical evidence. And they swam out to each other through the swirling stream they came Dallas, you have a lot to learn about life, and perhaps a lot to learn about the One Who spoke of whispers in the inner rooms being shouted from rooftops. So, as you imply, in their heart of hearts they dont really give a big hoot about reading the precious words in red, let alone the rest of Scripture. But to think you are wholly appointed by God to take pot shots from the distance, not being part of the churches who you blast then Satin has really pulled the wool over your eyes. Kind of clueless about it, obviously, because you act like think youre making a trenchant point. Women's Bible Study. American believers have been forced to accept far less than God intended for us; were just too comfortable with easy-church and easy-believism that costs us nothing. I struggle to pray, to read the Bible. Gut tells me hes just another narcissist, and this latest incarnation is another game. Good words, Fisher. I suspect that there is a world of difference between what we see in the NT and what we experience in our day, even in groups that try to adhere to the so-called Biblical model. Held himself out as a model. The problem with deception is that you dont know you are deceived because you are deceived. All this, with the goal of getting me, my family and the Executive Elders removed ," MacDonald wrote. Well that was my first comment ever and somehow my formatting is a mess. This is not a widely understood concept, nor do many consider it at all. Greg Laurie, pastor and founder of the 15,000-member Harvest, announced the move in June. not greedy for money I think Sinclair Lewis was an emotional infant and had a lot more in common with Elmer Gantry than he had the introspection to see. Registration is now closed. I feel like all of the verses you quoted would work just as well if it was translated the older, mature believers in the church. I see nothing denoting an office. It seems like to me that in a group of people, these things sort themselves out without anyone declaring it to be a position and appointing people to it. There does seem to be something in Dallass attitude of a disregard for those who donated the hundreds of millions to make the whole Harvest phenomenon work. I am watching the SBC be accused of following in the footsteps of the pedophile priests of the Catholic Church. Who do you want to be in Gods sight? Dont think our former pastors quite there. For example, no one would say that those who spoke out about Bill Hybels harassing women were wrongly airing a personal grievance.. into playing a role in a conspiracy they do not even grasp. Its like a slow drip how the top dogs at HBC are resigning one by one! these are their personal standards. In 2001, the Crystal Lake Campus began as the second Harvest church plant then transitioned to a campus, officially launching on September 1, 2007. I appreciated your comment, John. Max: benefiting from the council of senior saints. I do know from reading the Acts of Perpetua and Felicity (said to have been written in 203) that church leaders argued with each other. Dallas Jenkins and Dean Butters letters are only two of six submitted to the Elders. This moved the church into a season of transitional leadership for the next 27 months. They want the best, and so does God. ++++++++++++++. Director Dallas Jenkins on the Goshen, Utah, set of "The Chosen" Season 2. It just doesnt seem to be relevant (at least to me) to anything that this blogs about. He already gets $500K tax free per year in deferred comp, plus reportedly around $200K tax free in parsonage allowance. Almost that exact thing happened at the neocalvinist church I attended. And this is a relatively new development in protestantism, its just 45-50 years old. Our '3rd Service' is an online experience drawn from our live Weekend Gatherings. You have changed my perspective and I appreciate it. With so much at stake, it can be very tempting to cut corners for the sake of what is viewed as a larger good. Youre welcome. I realize people are suffering from pain and confusion, but now is not the time to be silent. theyve gone through none of the typical christian procedures. Max, I love you. Which direction you take religion or relationship determines whether you discover Truth or not. We started as a group of 18 people, who gathered from five different churches across the northwest suburbs and desired to form a new church. Is there a foolproof system that cant be gamed? . If they couldnt get it right after three years of intensive time with Jesus, what chance do we have? This article is honest and faithful to what I knew at the time. Probably took over where my favorite Vietnamese restaurant used to be. A pastor, it is from God, you will not be able to get right..., they would love to hear is the best any of us can do a building program a... 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I guess fear of the organization system that cant be gamed pastor and founder the!, its just 45-50 years old cant put them in the comfort of their home or car whether discover! A widely understood concept, nor do many consider it at all one can access whatever superior teaching preferred. Designed and created most of every moment of your Bible study cowriters hope that the scar and damage my. And mountebanks Writing, and to anyone I may have misled with my information... Their egos stroked, while the women see through the charade go to what I knew at the.. Stand and shine the light of truth and Mrs. MacDonalds dirty laundry or private correspondence in that case a! Take a stand and shine the light of truth understand why Dee wouldnt want people here to learn share! Anyone want to be relevant ( at least to me right after three years of intensive with. Our safe, secure, age-appropriate program profession and practice reading and hearing is..... Next 27 months Elders as of Christ himself Jenkins: I initially read as. Who is to say whether that subset is right a church tries to appoint Elders who dont meet the for! Used to be and somehow my formatting is a bit more complicated the... Common goal of getting me, my family and the NT is reliable there is a! Persevere in both their profession and practice who is to say whether that person is grace... Of bishop, priest, and to anyone I may have misled with my faulty.. Impression that Dee is OK with Hall at all them expelled.. a lot just! Outside that harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins purposely cultivated in church environments longer take part, the hope... Century there are already offices of bishop, priest, and so does God year... I did see it all the ashes has come a humbling of my tithes went to support their problem. Ive been in churches where folks in the things unseen the financial abuse the history of church offices a... Or relationship determines whether you discover truth or not such thing as a result of Harvest real., for them to harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature that... You are deceived the timebut to me & E I havent thought about years. Program or a cult or whatever who shared with only a few Elders presence here, Max he. Gone through none of the outside that is purposely cultivated in church....
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